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| israel_palestine_debate [2024/07/25 19:01] – rcif | israel_palestine_debate [2024/07/25 19:42] (current) – rcif |
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| // See also [[revised_ihra_definition_of_antisemitism|Definition and refutation of Antijudaism and antisemitism]], [[PSU]], [[Open letter to UO]] // | // See also [[revised_ihra_definition_of_antisemitism|Definition and refutation of Antijudaism and antisemitism]], [[PSU]], [[Open letter to UO]] // |
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| ^ # ^ Proposed by Israel alliance ^ # ^ Proposed by Palestinian alliance ^ | ^ # ^ Proposed by Coalition for Israel ^ # ^ Proposed by Coalition for Palestine ^ |
| | A-i | Israel is the post-colonial national liberation movement of the Jewish people | A-p | Israel is a settler colonial project of one or more empires and/or international conspiracies. | | | A-i | Israel is the post-colonial national liberation movement of the Jewish people, seeking peace with its neighbors. | A-p | Israel is a settler colonial project of one or more empires and/or international conspiracies, to make war against it is virtuous. | |
| | B-i | The Jews, like every other nation, have a right of national self-determination in their homeland. | B-p | Jews in exile and diaspora must convert, assimilate, or remain in a dis-priveleged status of dhimmi or as a "witness people to the wrath and severity of God" (in the words of Augustine of Hippo)[citation needed]], or as stateless minority religion in secular post-christian and post-muslim societies that inherit these legacies. | | | B-i | The Jews, like every other nation, have a right of national self-determination in their homeland. | B-p | Jews in exile and diaspora must convert, assimilate, or remain in a dis-priveleged status of dhimmi or as a "witness people to the wrath and severity of God" (in the words of Augustine of Hippo)[citation needed]], or as stateless minority religion in secular post-christian and post-muslim societies that inherit these legacies. | |
| | C1-i | Palestine/Israel is the historic homeland of the Jews, who are indigenous to the land from which they were exiled as a result of conquest and occupation by the Roman empire | C1-p | Jews have no history in the holy land, or else that historic connection has been severed by time and progress and is no longer relevant. | | | C1-i | Palestine/Israel is the historic homeland of the Jews, who are indigenous to the land from which they were exiled as a result of conquest and occupation by the Roman empire | C1-p | Jews have no history in the holy land, or else that historic connection has been severed by time and progress and is no longer relevant. | |
| | D2-i | As the indigenous people of Roman/Palestinian occupied Israel, the Jews have a moral and political right to seek national liberation through the post-colonial, anti-imperial liberation | D2-p | Jews have no such right, because "the old has passed away and the new has come". Judaism has been superseded and replaced by Christianity, and Jews must convert, assimilate, renounce the Sinai covenant, and eat the Easter ham. If they do not, they must disappear from history, and violence against them is justified. (the argument of "saints" Ambrose, Athanasius, John Chrysostom, Martin Luther.) Christianity having itself been superseded and replaced by either Islam, Enlightenment rationalism, or Marxist-Leninist materialism, Judaism is still replaced, and Jews must convert and assimilate to one or the other of these subsequent ideologies. A free and independent Palestine is necessary in order to secure the replacement and supercession, and to finally liberate the world from Judaism as foretold by these religious and ideological preceptors, to bring in a "new world order" and "new era for humanity". | | | D2-i | As the indigenous people of Roman/Palestinian occupied Israel, the Jews have a moral and political right to seek national liberation through the post-colonial, anti-imperial liberation | D2-p | Jews have no such right, because "the old has passed away and the new has come". Judaism has been superseded and replaced by Christianity, and Jews must convert, assimilate, renounce the Sinai covenant, and eat the Easter ham. If they do not, they must disappear from history, and violence against them is justified. (the argument of "saints" Ambrose, Athanasius, John Chrysostom, Martin Luther.) Christianity having itself been superseded and replaced by either Islam, Enlightenment rationalism, or Marxist-Leninist materialism, Judaism is still replaced, and Jews must convert and assimilate to one or the other of these subsequent ideologies. A free and independent Palestine is necessary in order to secure the replacement and supercession, and to finally liberate the world from Judaism as foretold by these religious and ideological preceptors, to bring in a "new world order" and "new era for humanity". | |
| | C3-i | Rome had no inherent moral or political right to occupy and colonize Israel, because might does not make right, and Rome's military power does not imply moral justice. As a colonial construct of the Graeco-Roman empires, Palestinian identity is inherently oppressive, white supremacist, and foreign to the land of Palestine/Israel itself. Resistance is justified when Israel is occupied. | C3-p | Rome had the right to occupy and colonize, because the Jews were in the midst of civil strife and infighting. Rome was bringing western civilization and progress. In like manner, a "free Palestine" would mean a new world order and a new era for humanity, and liberation of the world from Judaism. | | | C3-i | Rome had no inherent moral or political right to occupy and colonize Israel, because might does not make right, and Rome's military power does not imply moral justice. As a colonial construct of the Graeco-Roman empires, Palestinian identity is inherently oppressive, white supremacist, and foreign to the land of Palestine/Israel itself. Resistance is justified when Israel is occupied. | C3-p | Rome had the right to occupy and colonize, because the Jews were in the midst of civil strife and infighting. Rome was bringing western civilization and progress. In like manner, a "free Palestine" would mean a new world order and a new era for humanity, and liberation of the world from Judaism. | |
| | E0-i | An authentic anti-Israel Jewish voice would call Israel out of the land and into exile as punishment to atone for their sins, in fulfillment of the curse on disobedience prophesied in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28-30, and elsewhere. Like that of Jeremiah the prophet, or arguably like the historical Jesus (Joshua son of Miriam), this is an authentic Jewish anti-jingoism or non-zionism, that does not deny the blessing on repentance which include eventual return to the land. | E0-p | Jews have no right to return to the land of Israel/Palestine, because it is now one or more of the following: an Islamic waqf, an atheistic anti-capitalist border free utopia, a radical experiment in non-binary Queer liberation with a touch of Marcionite christian gnostic self transcendence, the "New Jerusalem" of "Saint" Helena and her son Augustine based around the church of the holy sepulchre in which Jews must remain poor and miserable as a witness people to the wrath of God, the Church of saint John Chrysostom or Ansel in which Jews must convert and assimilate or else be subject to murder and arson in order to eradicate the disease of Judaizing among the new Christian community which is the "spiritual Israel", or an exercise in militant romantic idealism and communal realization through will-to-power in the German tradition, but nominally at least without the Nazis. After we destroy Israel, we will have to fight each other for sovereignty. Regardless of the outcome, the quiet family life of Judaism is not compatible with any of these ideologies, so Jews should resign themselves to life Germany, Spain, Iraq, and Yemen, where they came from. | | | E0-i | An authentic anti-Israel Jewish voice would call Israel out of the land and into exile as punishment to atone for their sins, in fulfillment of the curse on disobedience prophesied in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28-30, and elsewhere. Like that of Jeremiah the prophet, or arguably like the historical Jesus (Joshua son of Miriam), this is an authentic Jewish anti-jingoism or non-zionism, that does not deny the blessing on repentance which include eventual return to the land. | E0-p | Jews have no right to return to the land of Israel/Palestine, because it is now one or more of the following: an Islamic waqf, an atheistic anti-capitalist border free utopia, the "New Jerusalem" of "Saint" Helena and her son Augustine based around the church of the holy sepulchre in which Jews must remain poor and miserable as a witness people to the wrath of God, the Church of saint John Chrysostom or Anselm in which Jews must convert and assimilate or else be subject to murder and arson in order to eradicate the disease of Judaizing among the new Christian community which is the "spiritual Israel", or an exercise in militant romantic idealism and communal realization through will-to-power in the German tradition but nominally at least without the Nazis, a radical experiment in non-binary Queer liberation with a touch of Marcionite christian gnostic self transcendence. After we destroy Israel, we will have to fight each other for sovereignty. Regardless of the outcome, the quiet family life of Judaism is not compatible with any of these ideologies, so Jews should resign themselves to life Germany, Spain, Iraq, and Yemen, where they came from, or else disappear from history. | |
| | E1-i | The JVP are a voice not for peace, but for an endless war against Israel. Many are insincere converts or hipsters using a "cafeteria" form of Judaism as cover for their practice of Queer liberation or Atheism. They are "cut off from the covenant", have decided to join an alternate religion or political cult incompatible with Judaism. Unlike Jeremiah they have rejected the Sinai covenant, but more like Christianity, Islam, Mormonism and others, they seek to merely culturally appropriate Jewish texts, rituals, and symbols and creatively redeploy them for anti-Jewish purposes of [[wp>supercession]] and replacement. See also: [[open letter to uo#who speaks for the jews]]. | E1-p | Consider JVP our token Jews, and we are permitted to tokenize them to demonstrate that although we hate Judaism as a political and religious system, we are not racist anti-semites. | | | E1-i | The JVP are a voice not for peace, but for an endless war against Israel. Many are insincere converts or hipsters using a "cafeteria" form of Judaism as cover for their practice of Queer liberation or Atheism. They are "cut off from the covenant", have decided to join an alternate religion or political cult incompatible with Judaism. Unlike Jeremiah they have rejected the Sinai covenant, but more like Christianity, Islam, Mormonism and others, they seek to merely culturally appropriate Jewish texts, rituals, and symbols and creatively redeploy them for anti-Jewish purposes of [[wp>supercession]] and replacement. See also: [[open letter to uo#who speaks for the jews]]. | E1-p | Consider JVP our token Jews, and we are permitted to tokenize them to demonstrate that although we hate Judaism as a political and religious system, we are not racist anti-semites. | |
| | E1-i | Conversion and denial of the covenant is often coping mechanism to dealing with epistemic anti-Jewish violence and social pressure, or with the other personal problems that this engenders. As persons who have suffered from the Jew-hate that is systemic in the western tradition, JVP members deserve compassion. But as victim co-perpetrators of that Jew-hatred, the JVP now has characteristics of a hate group. They support secular Arab supremacism instead of white supremacism, but based on the same underlying anti-Jewish premise. Instead of militant Islam or Christianity, they seem to employ militant atheism, anarchism, queer liberation, and/or Marxist-Leninism, which are also incompatible with Judaism. | E1-p | The JVP such can represent a legitimate albeit minority Jewish political philosophy. | | | E1-i | Conversion and denial of the covenant is often coping mechanism to dealing with epistemic anti-Jewish violence and social pressure, or with the other personal problems that this engenders. As persons who have suffered from the Jew-hate that is systemic in the western tradition, JVP members deserve compassion. But as victim co-perpetrators of that Jew-hatred, the JVP now has characteristics of a hate group. They support secular Arab supremacism instead of white supremacism, but based on the same underlying anti-Jewish premise. Instead of militant Islam or Christianity, they seem to employ militant atheism, anarchism, queer liberation, and/or Marxist-Leninism, which are also incompatible with Judaism. | E1-p | The JVP such can represent a legitimate albeit minority Jewish political philosophy. | |